Thursday, November 19, 2015

Pope Francis warns against “medicine of desires”

Pope Francis on Thursday met with participants attending a Conference for International Healthcare Workers - OSS_ROM

Pope Francis on Thursday met with participants attending a Conference for International Healthcare Workers – OSS_ROM



19/11/2015 13:46

The Pope added that these attitudes would be further highlighted during the Jubilee of Mercy.
Returning to the encyclical Evangelium Vitae, Pope Francis said it contained the vital elements of hospitality, compassion, understanding and forgiveness.

During his address the Holy Father also noted and warned against, what he called the “medicine of desires”: a mentality, he said, increasingly common in affluent countries, characterized by the pursuit of physical perfection at any cost, the illusion of eternal youth; a mentality that leads precisely to discarding or marginalizing those who are not seen as “efficient”.

Turning his attention to the gift of creation, the Pope said the anxiety that the Church has, in fact, is the fate of the human family and of all creation which needs to be nurtured in order to be passed on to future generations.

Finally, in keeping with this theme, Pope Francis encouraged the participants present to keep in mind, in their work, the reality of those populations that suffer most from the damage caused by environmental degradation, which can has severe and often permanent consequences on their health.


….


Taken from: http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/11/19/pope


Friday, November 13, 2015

“Those who always hector us about tolerance show the most extreme intolerance.” Eric Abetz.





Australian Catholic Bishops Conference pastoral letter

Parishioners prepared: A Hobart parishioner holds a copy of the Australian Bishops’ pastoral letter on marriage, distributed in Hobart earlier this year


....


Former minister moved in Senate that Catholic church should have right to distribute Don’t Mess with Marriage booklet.
A motion to protect the Catholic church’s right to distribute an anti-marriage equality booklet that marriage equality advocates have labelled “divisive” has been shot down by the Senate.
A former cabinet minister turned Coalition backbencher, Eric Abetz, put up the motion in the Senate on Thursday supporting the church’s pamphlet campaign.
The motion stated that: “The Senate, while not expressing a view on the contents of the booklet issued by the Australian Catholic bishops conference entitled Don’t Mess with Marriage, fully supports the rights of members of the Catholic church, including Archbishop Julian Porteous, to distribute it.”
It was brought on by Abetz with the support of a number of crossbenchers, including the independent senator John Madigan, Liberal Democrat David Leyonhjelm, Family First senator Bob Day, and Palmer United party’s Dio Wang.
Despite the crossbench support, Labor and the Greens joined forces to block the motion before it got put to a vote.
Abetz was scathing, saying that the two parties shut down the basic right of freedom of speech.
“Free speech is a key pillar of our society and the tricky tactics used by Labor in an effort to shut down debate and run a protection racket for the extreme Greens flies in the face of the open discussion we should be having about marriage,” he said.
“The motion firmly supports not only the right of the Catholic archbishop of Hobart and the Australian Catholic bishops conference but all Australians to engage in open discussion about the truth of marriage.
“I will continue to fight to uphold the institution of marriage and defend the right of people to speak up in defence of this vitally important societal institution.”
He promised to bring back the motion in the next sitting week.
The letter from Catholic bishops of Australia was distributed directly to Catholic schools earlier this year.
It said that only the union between a man and woman can make a person “whole”.




“Same-sex friendships are of a very different kind: to treat them as the same does a grave injustice to both kinds of friendship and ignores the particular values that real marriages serve,” it said.
“ ‘Messing with marriage’, therefore, is also ‘messing with kids’. It is gravely unjust to them. The principal ‘public’ significance of the marriage-based family is precisely in being the nursery for raising healthy, well-rounded, virtuous citizens.”
The Greens senator Robert Simms told Guardian Australia that the pamphlet promoted the idea that same-sex parents were “deficient”.
“I think it’s totally out of step with society,” he said. “It really does fan divisions in the community.”
The Tasmanian anti-discrimination commissioner is assessing a complaint on the booklet.
Labor senator Claire Moore said it was “simply not appropriate for the Senate to determine a position on this matter” while a case was being decided.
Abetz said the church’s right to “teach its flock” its beliefs on marriage were being “shut down” by organisations.
“Those who always hector us about tolerance show the most extreme intolerance,” he said, referring to the Greens. “It is vital that there be an expression from this Senate about the right of freedom to speech and the right to express certain views.”
Simms said: “The Australian Greens support free speech in this country, but we recognise that freedom of speech is a limited concept in any democracy.
“We believe that the right to express a view should be balanced against the rights of members of our community to feel safe and secure from persecution and discrimination.”
Abetz, from the conservative right of the Liberal party, has fought hard for the Parliament to retain the existing definition of marriage, which states that it is exclusively between a man and a woman.
The Coalition has pledged to hold a public poll on marriage equality after the next federal election, although whether or not the result of the plebiscite will be binding on parliamentarians has not yet been settled.




....




Taken from: http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/12/greens-and-labor-thwart-eric-abetz-anti-marriage-equality-booklet-motion

Tuesday, November 10, 2015

Pope Francis: A new humanism in Christ Jesus

Pope Francis speaks in Florence's Cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiori during the Fifth National Convention of the Italian Church.  - AP       
Pope Francis speaks in Florence's Cathedral of Santa Maria del Fiori during the Fifth National Convention of the Italian Church. - AP



10/11/2015 14:39


(Vatican Radio) “I don't want to design in the abstract a ‘new humanism,’ a certain idea of man, but to present with simplicity some features of the practical Christian humanism that is present in the ‘mind’ of Christ Jesus.”
Pope Francis was speaking in Florence at a meeting of the Fifth National Convention of the Italian Church. In a programmatic speech, Pope Francis laid out his vision for "a new humanism in Christ Jesus."

Listen to Christopher Wells' report: 


The Holy Father said humanism should take its starting point from “the centrality of Jesus,” in whom we discover “the features of the authentic face of man.” His reflection took its starting point from the passage from St Paul’s Letter to the Philippians: “Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus.” What is this attitude? the Pope asked. He suggested three specific traits: humility, disinterest, and happiness (It: beatitudine).
With regard to humility, the Pope said we should pursue the glory of God, and not our own. “The glory of God that blazes in the humility of the cave of Bethlehem or in the dishonour of the Cross of Christ always surprises us.” Disinterest is seen in the quote from Philippians, which speaks of “each one looking out not for his own interests, but [also] everyone for those of others.” A Christian’s humanity, he said, is not narcissistic or self-centred, but always goes out to others, which leads us always to work and to fight to make the world a better place. Finally, a Christian is happy (It: beato) because he has within him the joy of the Gospel. Jesus shows us the path to happiness in the Beatitudes, which “begin with a blessing, and end with the promise of consolation.”
These three traits, the Pope said, show that the Church must not be obsessed with power, even if it seems as though power would be useful. “If the Church does not take up the attitude of Jesus, it is disoriented, and loses its senses.”
Pope Francis acknowledged the temptations the Church faces, mentioning two in particular: Pelagianism and Gnosticism. “Pelagianism leads us to have faith in structures, in organizations, in plans that are perfect because they are abstract.” The reform of the Church does not mean simply coming up with yet another plan to change structures, but instead means “being grafted onto and rooted in Christ, [the Church] allowing herself to be lead by the Spirit.”
Another temptation, Gnosticism, “leads to trusting in logical and clear reasoning, which, however, loses the tenderness of the flesh of the brother.” The fascination with Gnosticism, he said, “is that of “a purely subjective faith whose only interest is a certain experience or a set of ideas and bits of information which are meant to console and enlighten, but which ultimately keep one imprisoned in his or her own thoughts and feelings.”
The Pope noted that Italy has many great saints, such as St Francis of Assisi and St Philip Neri, whose example can help people live the faith with humility, disinterest, and joy. He also gave the example of Don Camillo, a famous Italian literary character. The Pope said he was struck at how the fictional priest always united “the prayer of a good pastor” with the evident closeness to his people.
Pope Francis also had specific recommendations for his audience. He encouraged Bishops to always be pastors, saying, “This will be your joy.”  He spoke, too, about the importance of the “social inclusion” of the less fortunate, recalling the teaching of St John Paul II and Benedict XVI on the doctrine of the preferential option for the poor.
He also called on the Italian Church to avoid being concerned with power, with its own image, with money. “Evangelical poverty,” he said, “is creative, welcoming, supportive, and rich in hope.”
“I recommend to you also, in a special way, the capacity for dialogue and encounter,” the Pope said. The best way to dialogue, he said, is not simply by discussing and talking together, but by working together with all men and women of good will. He also encouraged young people to overcome apathy, to become “builders of Italy, to put [themselves] to work for a better Italy.”
Today, Pope Francis said, “we are not living in an era of change so much as a change of eras.” In the face of the challenges we face in the modern world, he said we must seek to see our problems as “challenges, not obstacles,” reminding us that the Lord is active and at work in the world.” Wherever we find ourselves, he said, we must “never construct walls or borders, but [rather] piazzas and field hospitals.”
Concluding his address, Pope Francis said again he prefers to see the Italian Church as restless, “always close to the abandoned, the forgotten, the imperfect.” He said he longs for “a joyful Church with the face of a mother, who understands, accompanies, caresses,” and called on those present to “dream . . . about this Church, believe in it, innovate with freedom.” Pope Francis said it wasn’t his place to tell them how to accomplish “this dream,” but nonetheless encouraged them to look to his Apostolic Exhortation Evangelii gaudium, seeking ways to deepen their understanding of its message, and find new ways to implement its practical suggestions.”
....

Taken from: http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/11/10/pope_francis_a_new_humanism_in_christ_jesus/1185723

Friday, November 6, 2015

Hebrew Bible as an Inspiration for Ancient Greek Philosophy

 

by

Damien F. Mackey

 
 
 
This article follows up my theme that the Church Fathers were right about the Hebrew origins of mainstream Greek philosophy.

 
 

Introduction

 

In previous articles I have supported

 

               i.          St. Clement of Alexandria’s view that Plato’s writings took their inspiration from the Hebrew Moses, and

             ii.          St. Ambrose’s belief that Plato had learned from the prophet Jeremiah in Egypt; a belief that was initially taken up by St. Augustine, who added that

           iii.          Greek philosophy generally derived from the Jewish Scriptures.

 

And, though St. Augustine later retracted his acceptance of St. Ambrose’s view, realising that it was chronologically impossible for Jeremiah (c. 600 BC) to have met Plato anywhere, considering the c. 400 BC date customarily assigned to Plato, I have, on the other hand, looked to turn this around by challenging the conventional dates.

From the Book of Jeremiah we learn that Jeremiah and Baruch went together to Egypt. So this Baruch, whom tradition also identifies as Zoroaster, would be a possible candidate to consider for St. Ambrose ‘Plato who was contemporaneous with Jeremiah in Egypt’.

Again, much of Plato’s most famous work, The Republic, with its themes of justice and righteousness, could have arisen, I suggest, from the intense dialogues of the books of Jeremiah and Job of identical themes. I shall discuss this further below.

 

Saint Justin Martyr

 

Moreover, St. Justin Martyr had, even earlier than the above-mentioned Church Fathers, espoused the view of the Greek philosophers borrowing from the biblical Hebrews. And Justin Martyr too, had, like Plato, written an Apology, in Justin’s case also apparently (like Plato) in regard to a martyrdom. So we read (http://beityahuwah.blogspot.com/2005/08/plato-stole-his-ideas-from-):

 

Plato Stole his ideas from Moses: True or False ….

 

The belief that the philosophers of Greece, including Plato and Aristotle, plagiarized certain of their teaching from Moses and the Hebrew prophets is an argument used by Christian Apologists of Gentile background who lived in the first four centuries of Christians.

 

My comment: I would like to take this a stage further. Just as I have argued in my

 

Solomon and Sheba

 


 

that the supposed Athenian statesman and lawgiver, Solon, was in fact a Greek appropriation of Israel’s wise lawgiver, Solomon, so do I believe that the primary ‘Ionian’ and ‘Greek’ philosophers of antiquity were actually Greek appropriations of Hebrew sages and prophets. Regarding the supposed “Father of Philosophy”, Thales, for instance, see my:

 


 


 

and, for Pythagoras:

 


Hebrew Foundations of Pythagoras


 


 

Now, getting back to the Church Fathers:

 

Three key figures who presented this thesis are Justin Martyr “The most important second­ century apologist” {50. Grant 1973}, Titus Flavius Clemens known as Clement of Alexandria “the illustrious head of the Catechetical School at Alexandria at the close of the second century, was originally a pagan philosopher” (11, Robert 1857) and is renowned as being possibly the teacher of Origen. He was born either in Alexandria or Athens {Epiphs Haer, xxii.6}. Our final giant who supports this thesis is Eusebius of Caesarea known as the father of Church history. Each of these in their defense of the Christian faith presented some form of the thesis that the philosophers of Greece learned from the prophets of Israel. Our interest in this paper is on the arguments of the earliest of these writers, Justin Martyr. He represents the position of Christian apology in the middle of the second century, as opposed to the later Clement of Alexandria and the even later Eusebius of Caesarea.

In light of the stature and the credibility of these three Church Fathers even if the idea that Plato learned from Moses seems far fetched we would do well to take a closer look at the argument and the evidence presented by such men of stature. Justin was a philosopher who came from a pagan background. He issued from Shechem in Palestine. He was a marvelous scholar in his own right well read and well qualified to make informed judgments in the arena of philosophy.

Our purpose is to briefly look at the theses presented by Justin Martyr and to try to discern the plausibility of the thesis.

 

Justin Martyr and the line Plato took from Moses.

 

My comment on this section: If the great Plato is to be restored as a biblical sage, as I think eventually he must be, then this would be not so much a case of Greeks plagiarising the Scriptures as of a biblical wise man (the original Plato) keeping alive the Mosaïc Law and Tradition.

The article continues with a biography of Justin Martyr:

 

Justin Martyr was a prolific second century Apologist. He was born in Flavia Neapolis (Shechem) in Samaria. Well known for the local Samaritan temple on Mount Gerizim and a temple built by Hadrian to Zeus Hypsistos. He later passed through Stoicism and the way of Aristotle’s disciples the Peripatetics and was rejected as unqualified to study Pythagoreanism and finally he met a Platonist with whom he advanced in his studies. To him the goal of Platonism was “the vision of God”. One day he met a Christian on the beach and was converted to the faith. He did not become a priest or bishop but took to teaching and defending the faith.

Text

He wrote many works and many more bear his name. However modern scholarship has judged that of the many works that bear his name only three are considered genuine. These are 2 Apologies and the Dialogue with the Jew Trypho. They are preserved in one manuscript of the year 1364 (Cod Par, gr. 450).

Language

Justin wrote in Greek, and right in the middle of the period of philosophy called Middle Platonism. The book in which he outlines his thesis that Moses and the prophets were a source for the Greek Philosophers is his first Apology. It is dated to 155-157 BC and was addressed to “The Emperor Titus Aelius Hadrianus Antonius Pius Caesar Augustus, and the sons Verissimus, philosopher, philosopher, and Lucius” Grant (52, 1973).

 

My comment: I would seriously contest these conventional dates for Imperial Rome, given my view that the so-called ‘First’ and ‘Second’ Jewish revolts against Rome, separated by more than half a century, were the one and same revolt of 70 AD. See my:

 

I Am Barabbas

 


 

 
It is here that Justin makes a most interesting and intriguing statement rallying Plato to the side of Moses and Isaiah, in the eyes of the son of the Emperor whom he calls philosophers.

 
 

The article continues with the writings of Justin Martyr:

 

Context

Grant (1973) believes the reason which triggered the Apology was the martyrdom of Polycarp in 156 AD and the injustice of it during the bishopric of Anicetus. Even as this martyrdom and its report may have spurred Justin on to write so it had been that it was on seeing the fortitude of the Christian martyrs which had disposed him favorably towards the faith (Ap 2.12.1). ….

In the Apology 1 Justin gives the reason for his writing

“I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition on behalf of those of all nations who are unjustly hated and wantonly abused; my self being one of them” (Apology 1 chap).

The Apology 1 is divided into 60 chapters. The translation we are using is that of the Ante Nicene Fathers and can be seen at www.ccel.org

The topics covered are many. He starts in chapter 2 by demanding justice, he requires that before the Christians are condemned they should be given a fair trial to see if they have committed any crimes or not. They should not be condemned merely for being Christian. He covers many subjects including: the accusation Christians were Atheists, faith in God; the Kingdom of Christ; God’s service; demonic teachings; Christ’s teachings and heathen analogies to it; non Christian worship; magic; exposing children, the Hebrew prophets and their prophecies about Christ, types of prophetic words from the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This brings us to about chapter 38. At this point Justin begins to cover the issue of determinism and free will. He argues that although the future was prophesied it does not mean everything is determined according to fate and man has no responsibility for he has no choice. Rather he points to Moses revealing God’s choice to Adam “Behold before thy face are good and evil: choose the good”. (Apol 1 44) And he quotes lsaiah’s appeal to Israel to wash and be clean and the consequences of doing so or not doing so. The consequences of disobedience are that the sword would devour Israel. Justin picks up on the statement regarding the sword and argues that it is not a literal sword which is referred to but “the sword of God is a fire, of which those who choose to do wickedly will become the fuel” (Apol 1 44). Justin having appealed to Moses and Isaiah as a warning to the Roman rulers now appeals to one with whom they are more familiar, Plato the philosopher, to support his case that man is free to choose good or evil. It is here that Justin makes a most interesting and intriguing statement rallying Plato to the side of Moses and Isaiah, in the eyes of the son of the Emperor whom he calls philosophers.

And so, too, Plato, when he says, “The blame is his who chooses, and God is blameless” took this from the prophet Moses and uttered it.

For Moses is more ancient than all the Greek writers. And whatever both philosophers and poets have said concerning the immortality of the soul, or punishments after death, or contemplation of things heavenly, or doctrines of the like kind, they have received such suggestions from the prophets as have enabled them to understand and interpret these things. And hence there seem to be seeds of truth among all men; but they are charged with not accurately understanding [the truth] when they assert contradictories.

…. He appears to be making the claim that Plato who has “exerted a greater influence over human thought than any other individual with the possible exception of Aristotle” (Demos, 1927.vi) was dependent for his understanding of freewill and responsibility on Moses. The saying “the blame is his who chooses, and God is blameless (Aitia helomenou Theos d’ anaios) {Joann. Mdcccxlii, 224}” was taken from Moses by Plato and uttered it {eipe}”.

[End of quote]

 

Plato and Job

 

The combined story of Job and his alter ego, Tobias, son of Tobit

 

Job’s Life and Times

 


 

has had a profound influence upon worldwide literature, both ancient and modern. To give just one example, see my:

 


 


 

And, as already implied, I believe that this biblical story has also had a huge influence upon ancient (supposedly Greco-Roman) philosophy, which, however, significantly alters the original version. For, whilst there can be a similarity in thought between Plato and, for example, the Book of Job, the tone may be quite different. Plato’s Republic, and his other dialogues such as Protagoras and Meno, brilliant though they may be in places, when compared with the intense atmosphere of the drama of the Book of Job, come across sometimes as a bit like a gentlemen’s discussion over a glass of port. W. Guthrie may have captured something of this general tone in his Introduction to Plato. Protagoras and Meno (Penguin, 1968), when he wrote (p. 20, emphasis added):

 

… a feature of the conversation which cannot fail to strike a reader is its unbroken urbanity and good temper. The keynote is courtesy and forbearance, though these are not always forthcoming without a struggle. Socrates is constantly on the alert for the signs of displeasure on the part of Protagoras, and when he detects them, is careful not to press his point, and the dialogue ends with mutual expressions of esteem. ….

 

[End of quote]

 

Now compare this gentlemanly tone with Job’s ‘How long will you torment me, and break me in pieces with words? These ten times you have cast reproach upon me; are you not ashamed to wrong me?’ (19:1-3), and Eliphaz’s accusations of the holy man: ‘Is not your wickedness great? There is no end to your iniquities [which supposed types of injustice on the part of Job Eliphaz then proceeds to itemise]’ (22:5).

In Plato’s dialogues, by way of complete contrast, we get pages and pages of the following sort of amicable discussion as taken from The Republic (Bk. 2, 368-369):


 


[Socrates] ‘Justice can be a characteristic of an individual or of a community, can it not?’

[Adeimantus] ‘Yes’.

[Socrates] ‘And a community is larger than an individual?’

[Adeimantus] ‘It is”.

[Socrates] ‘We may therefore find that the amount of justice in the larger entity is greater, and so easier to recognize. I accordingly propose that we start our enquiry …’.

[Adeimantus] ‘That seems a good idea’, he agreed. ….

 

Protagoras, the well-known Sophist, is famous for his maxim “Man is the measure of all things, of those that are that they are, and of those that are not that they are not” (Plato’s Theaetetus, 152), a philosophy that has its severe limitations:


 


The Futile Aspiration to Make ‘Man the Measure of All Things’


 


https://www.academia.edu/8494268/The_Futile_Aspiration_to_Make_Man_the_Measure_of_All_Things_


 


However, this maxim may actually be, according to my estimation, based upon the philosophy of the elderly Eliphaz of the Book of Job. For his possible identity in the Book of Tobit, see my:


 


 


https://www.academia.edu/12159726/Friends_of_the_Prophet_Job._Part_One_Eliphaz_the_Temanite


 


Though Eliphaz was by no means a Sophist along the Greek lines, he was, like Protagoras with Socrates, largely opposed to his opponent’s point of view. And so, whilst the God-fearing Eliphaz would never have uttered anything so radical or atheistic as “man is the measure of all things”, he was however opposed to the very Job who had, in his discussion of wisdom, spoken of God as ‘apportioning out by measure’ all the things that He had created (Job 28:12, 13, 25).


Whilst Protagoras is but a pale ghost of the biblical Eliphaz, some of the original lustre does still manage to shine through, nonetheless, as with Protagoras’s claim that knowledge, or wisdom, was the highest thing in life (Protagoras, 352C, D) (cf. Eliphaz in Job 22:1-2). And Guthrie adds that Protagoras “would repudiate as scornfully as Socrates the almost bestial type of hedonism advocated by Callicles, who says that what nature means by fair and right is for the strong man to let his desires grow as big as possible and have the means of everlastingly satisfying them” (op. cit., p. 22).


Eliphaz, Job-Tobias’s father-in-law according to my reconstructions, appears, from this, to have later been re-invented as Protagoras the Sophist from Abdera, as a perfect foil to Socrates (with Job’s other friends also perhaps emerging in the Greek versions re-cast as Sophists). Protagoras stated, somewhat like Eliphaz, that he was old enough to be the father of any of them. “Indeed I am getting on in life now – so far as age goes I might be the father of any one of you …” (Protagoras, 317 C). That Eliphaz was old is indicated by the fact that he is the first to address Job and that he also refers to men older than Job’s father (Job 15:10). Now, just as Fr. R. MacKenzie (S.J.) in his commentary on “Job”, in The Jerome Biblical Commentary, tells of Eliphaz’s esteem for, and courtesy towards, Job (31:23):


 


Eliphaz is presumably the oldest of the three and therefore the wisest; he is certainly the most courteous and the most eloquent. He has a genuine esteem for Job and is deeply sorry for him. He knows the advice to give him, the wisdom that lays down what he must do to receive relief from his sufferings.

[End of quote]

 

so does Guthrie, reciprocally (I suggest), say: “Protagoras – whom [Socrates] regards with genuine admiration and liking” (op. cit., p. 22).

But, again, just as the righteous Job had scandalised his friends by his levity, according to St. Thomas Aquinas (“Literal Exposition on Job”, 42:1-10), “And here one should consider that [the young] Elihu had sinned out of inexperience whereas Job had sinned out of levity, and so neither of them had sinned gravely”, so does Guthrie use this very same word, “levity”, in the context of an apparent flaw in the character of Socrates (ibid., p. 18):


 


There is one feature of the Protagoras which cannot fail to puzzle, if not exasperate, a reader: the behaviour of Socrates. At times he treats the discussion with such levity, and at other times with such unscrupulousness, that Wilamowitz felt bound to conclude that the dialogue could only have been written in his lifetime. This, he wrote, is the human being whom Plato knew; only after he had suffered a martyr’s death did the need assert itself to idealize his character.

[End of quote]

 

Job’s tendency towards levity had apparently survived right down into the Greek era. Admittedly, the Greek version does get much nastier in the case of Thrasymachus, and even more so with Callicles in Plato’s Gorgias, but in The Republic, at least, it never rises to the dramatic pitch of Job’s dialogues with his three friends.

Here is that least friendly of the debaters, Thrasymachus, at his nastiest (Republic, Bk. I, 341):

 

[Socrates] Well, said I, ‘so you think I’m malicious, do you Thrasymachus?’

[Thrasymachus] ‘I certainly do’.

[Socrates] ‘You think my questions were deliberately framed to distort your argument?’

[Thrasymachus] ‘I know perfectly well they were. But they won’t get you anywhere; you can’t fool me, and if you don’t you won’t be able to crush me in argument’.

[Socrates] ‘My dear chap, I wouldn’t dream of trying’, I said ….

 

Socrates and Plato are similarly (like the Sophists) watered-down entities by comparison with the Middle Eastern originals. Such is how the Hebrew Scriptures end up when filtered through the Greeks, [and, in the case of Plato, perhaps through Egypt before the Greeks, hence a double filtering]. Even then, it is doubtful whether the finely filtered version of Plato that we now have could have been written by pagan Greeks. At least some of it seems to belong clearly to the Christian era, e.g. “The just man … will be scourged, tortured, and imprisoned … and after enduring every humiliation he will be crucified” (The Republic, Bk. 2, 362).

 

I submit that this statement would not likely have been written prior to the Gospels.